This is an update of the story from Colorado Springs—a story getting almost no media attention—where an Iraqi refugee is charged with critically wounding a local police officer.
On Saturday, Officer Cem Duzel remained in critical condition.
Breitbart is reporting that Attorney General Jeff Sessions used the near fatal shooting of Duzel as something that would not have happened if earlier courts had not blocked the Iraqi refugee’s deportation in the wake of other crimes he had previously committed.
But that isn’t the important bit of news I want to focus on…..
Buried in the Breitbart story here, is perhaps the first time in ten years that I have seen any reporter make a direct connection between a refugee’s violent crime and the resettlement agency responsible for his placement in the state—Lutheran Family Services is specifically mentioned in news reports.
That is a breakthrough!!!!
Jeff Sessions Slams Court Decisions That Kept Accused Police-Shooting Refugee in U.S.
Attorney General Jeff Sessions drew attention to a series of federal court decisions holding laws using the blanket federal definition of “violent crime” to be “unconstitutionally vague” in a pair of talks about violent crime this past week.
The issue came to a head this week when it became clear an Iraqi refugee accused of trying to kill a Colorado Springs policeman had been slated to be deported in 2016 for his previous convictions, only to be saved by the courts.
“Right now we are missing one of the most important law enforcement tools we had because of a 2015 Supreme Court decision holding that the legal definition of ‘violent felony’ was too vague,” Sessions said in his prepared remarks. “The Supreme Court struck down part of a law called the Armed Career Criminal Act. It had been on the books for 30 years and applied thousands of times. … The Court ruled that the definition of ‘violent felony’ was too vague.”
Karrar Noaman Al Khammasi, 31, is charged with putting Colorado Springs Police Department officer Cem Duzel in the hospital in critical condition when he allegedly shot it out with law enforcement who responded to calls of shots fired last month. A Monday report in the Washington Times quoted a Department of Homeland Security (DHS) official confirming that Al Khammasi was allowed to stay in the country despite his criminal record because of one of these rulings.
Since arriving in 2012, Khammasi has, according to the Washington Times, been in trouble with the law no fewer than nine times, including “drunken driving, trespassing, assault, extortion and illegally possessing a firearm.”
Lutheran Family Services Rocky Mountains is, according to the Colorado Springs Gazette, the organization responsible for bringing Khammasi and his fellow Middle Eastern refugees to Colorado’s El Paso County. They refused to comment on the case, telling the Gazette that “it does not comment on involvement with clients.
“Clients!” “Clients!” Yes, they refer to the refugees as clients!
Sessions says it is up to Congress to clarify the law.
And the next point that should be made about this case by the Attorney General or the White House is about vetting. We were beaten over the heads by the media and the refugee contractors throughout the Obama Administration about the “robust” vetting refugees undergo before coming to the US.
Well! So much for the big lie! “Robust” vetting surely should have screened out this creep!
I was recently interviewed by Sandy Rios on American Family Radio. We discussed the jihad on Christians, then and now, in the context of my new book Sword and Scimitar: Fourteen Centuries of War between Islam and the West. The 45-minute interview can be listened to by clicking here or below: https://streamer1.afa.net/afr-aod/sandyrios/sr_20180810.mp3
They have monopolized working the system for decades!
How dare a 32-year-old Trump adviser mess with their finely tuned system that has kept the public in the dark for decades about how the refugee resettlement program works in America!
“Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day, I won.” – President Obama to House Republican Whip Eric Cantor, January 23, 2009.
Vanity Fair writer Abigail Tracy (20-something) swallowed all of the propaganda from the usual gang of long-time Open Borders refugee industry advocates like Anne Richard and Eric Schwartz (both affiliated with George Soros in their careers) and other deep-staters who won’t be named with no flicker of understanding that Stephen Miller isn’t using his vast knowledge of the Washington game because of a personal animus toward refugees.
He is reflecting a public sentiment on immigration that got Donald Trump elected President of the United States and when it comes to refugees, the public was getting sick of the secrecy and underhandedness of those surrounding the then victorious Obama.
Not to mention sick of paying for a refugee program that NEVER took in to consideration the views of the citizens living in communities secretly chosen to ‘welcome’ refugees.
[See Judicial Watch sues to get Obama-era records on choosing resettlement sites!]
It is way past time to scrap the entire US Refugee Admissions Program and then see if there is the political will to reform it.
So now the shoe is on the other foot, someone who has concerns with the Refugee Program and how it has operated since the early 1980s and who also understands how government works (placing the President’s people in key positions) has these shameless Leftwing Open Borders agitators flummoxed and furious!
There is so much in this piece, I can’t possibly address it all! So please read it here.
“THERE WON’T EVEN BE A PAPER TRAIL”: HAS STEPHEN MILLER BECOME A SHADOW MASTER AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT?
The lead-in (below) to Ms. Abigail’s story had me laughing….”transparent policy process” is the last thing the US Refugee Admissions Program ever was!!! And, its complete lack of transparency has kept me writing about it for over ten years! Now they wail about transparency!
For the past year, Miller has been quietly gutting the U.S. refugee program, slashing the number of people allowed into the country to the lowest level in decades. “His name hasn’t been on anything,” says a former U.S. official who worked on refugee issues. “He is working behind the scenes, he has planted all of his people in all of these positions, he is on the phone with them all of the time, and he is creating a side operation that will circumvent the normal, transparent policy process.” And he is succeeding.
Then here are some bits of the remainder of the long piece (emphasis is mine, and I broke up a couple of ridiculously long paragraphs to make it more reader-friendly):
In his first month in the White House, Stephen Miller learned a valuable lesson from a mentor. As one of his first acts as president, Donald Trump had signed an executive order banning travel to the United States from several majority-Muslim countries, and mass protests were breaking out across the country. Law-enforcement officials, who had received little guidance on how to carry out the order, were flummoxed, and the administration was swiftly taken to court.
Chief strategist Steve Bannon, who helped craft the order alongside Miller, was nevertheless delighted by the self-created maelstrom. When journalist Michael Wolff later asked Bannon why the ban had been implemented so recklessly, Bannon suggested the chaos was part of the fun. “So the snowflakes would show up at the airports and riot,” he replied.
Whereas Bannon made controversy his calling card, Miller has operated in a more shadowy—and effective—manner, gradually applying leverage and using shrewd personnel decisions to implement his draconian vision on immigration policy throughout the West Wing and government agencies. Some measures, like his role in the travel ban or the Trump administration’s callous family-separation policy, have been obvious.
“It was really a shock to a bureau whose mission is to help refugees,” Anne Richard, a former assistant secretary of state for Population, Refugees and Migration, said of the travel ban. “I knew the Trump administration from the campaign was hostile to refugees. I did not anticipate that they would move so quickly, even before there was a Secretary of State.” As one senior Senate staffer explained, in the early months of the Trump administration “it was very dramatic and people knew what was happening and you could just see it visibly.”
Other maneuvers to restrict legal immigration have been slightly more subtle. Last September, Miller played a leading role in slashing the refugee admissions cap to 45,000—less than one-half the 110,000 ceiling set under President Barack Obama, and the lowest level since 1980. Now, he has reportedly revived his push for another cut, to a cap as low as 15,000 refugees. Earlier this week, the 32-year-old senior adviser was reported to be focused on an even more ambitious project: imposing strict limits on legal immigration, as well as on individuals seeking asylum from war, famine, and prosecution.
“The administration seems to delight in picking on the most vulnerable people,” David Robinson, the former assistant secretary for the Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations at the State Department, told me, enumerating the ways in which the resettlement process had been logjammed. “Pretty soon you are going to have a trickle and not a stream.”
I’ll have to tell you about David Robinson some other time. He was once very critical of the USRAP.
Nearly a dozen current and former administration officials I have spoken with in recent weeks describe the latest negotiations over the refugee-admissions cap as one of the more insidious examples of Miller’s efforts to curtail immigration to the United States. (Miller, a lifelong culture warrior, first made his name in conservative circles with an impassioned op-ed raging against the preponderance of Latino students who “lacked basic English skills” in his high school.) “It’s part of a very coherent, effective, and successful plan. It’s not easy to do hard things in our government,” a former official at the Department of Homeland Security explained. “Our government is huge . . . it’s kind of constructed to slow things down and to make sure that individuals don’t wield excessive power. It’s got lots and lots of checks and balances, so it’s really difficult to pull off something like what they’ve pulled off, and they’ve done it.” There are, after all, hundreds of career civil servants who have dedicated their lives to helping the estimated 69 million refugees in the world, only a minuscule portion of whom ever gain sanctuary in the United States.
But Miller has found ways to hijack the machinery of the government to undermine these agencies’ core mission. “Now, it’s sort of like the termite approach, which is you place people inside and you have them basically eat away in a more quiet way, subtly inside,” the senior Senate staffer continued. “It’s not as transparent to the outside world, and they just sort of destroy programs they don’t care about.” (The White House declined multiple requests for comment.)
As Miller has shored up his influence in the West Wing, he has simultaneously broadened his leverage as his ideological allies secure critical positions across the government. [That is how it works! Too bad Bannon didn’t understand that.—ed]
At first, sources say, Miller focused his efforts on installing immigration hardliners at the White House, D.H.S., and D.O.J. “[He would place] a political [appointee] that was high up enough that they would know everything but not high up enough that they would be in the public spotlight or needing Senate confirmation,” the current administration official told me.
Miller has been particularly attentive to the refugee program at the State Department, which flows through the bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration, cultivating attachés to assist his agenda. (Miller’s defenders say he is working to execute the president’s agenda, not his own.) “He is definitely in empire-building mode and succeeding at it,” a former administration official who worked on refugee policy told me. “He’s plugged every hole across the U.S. government and replaced every weak link with one of his staunch allies so that there is virtually no path forward for anyone who cares about refugee protection. You just run up against a wall at every path.”
This next bit is very annoying. “Fine-tuned machine!” “Bi-partisan support on Capitol Hill.” “Worked together for decades.” Yes, maybe so because it was controlled by Dems who wanted the “New American” voters and Republican Chamber of Commerce-types who want the cheap labor! Most everyone else on the Hill is too chicken to say a word about it for fear of getting the treatment Miller is getting now!
Before Trump took office, the Population, Refugee, and Migration Bureau at the State Department enjoyed sustained bipartisan support on Capitol Hill. “This was a fine-tuned machine, it was people that had worked together for decades,” said Robinson, who also served as the deputy assistant secretary of state in the refugee bureau. “They are the experts on refugee issues—not just resettlement.” Under the current administration, however, refugee issues have become a lightning rod. Current and former officials described P.R.M. to me as a bureau under siege, with beleaguered staffers trying their best to stay professional and keep their heads down—not always with success. Since January 20, the majority of the bureau’s top talent has been ousted or left.
It remains an open question whether P.R.M. will survive at all, in its current form.
It should not survive in its current form!
More here, it is worth reading! There is so much in here that I would love to comment on, but so little time….
What you must do!
Contact the White House, give Miller support and tell the President to not just cut the numbers of refugees to be admitted in FY19, but push Congress to scrap the entire program and start all over again (if the public wants some refugee program).
I can’t emphasize enough that if the present flawed system stays in place, and the White House is not Trump’s in 2020 or 2024, the refugee industry will go right back to high numbers and sneaky resettlement planning for your towns and cities (while you pay for the whole thing!).
It will take you under 5 minutes to contact the White House and there is nothing to lose by doing it! You likely will never know how much it helps, but so what, do it anyway.
As the Assad regime completes its takeover of southern Syria, Israel is winding down a humanitarian and medical operation that saved thousands of Syrian lives throughout the civil war. A brief look at the official Israeli figures, unveiled recently by
The New York Post editorial yesterday is entitled:
It’s been a rough year for the Southern Poverty Law Center — deservedly so. And it just got more difficult, thanks to Attorney General Jeff Sessions.
The SPLC, formed in 1971 as an aggressive civil-rights nonprofit law firm, has become the left’s go-to arbiter of what constitutes a hate group. Its pronouncements are quoted without challenge by the news media, and it has an endowment of $300 million, enriched by major corporate donors.
Yet its overly broad definition of “hate” often goes far beyond truly vile outfits to include people and groups that simply don’t toe a politically correct line. That’s why the SPLC two months ago had to pay $3.4 million and publicly apologize to Maajid Nawaz, whom it had falsely labeled an “anti-Muslim extremist.” (He’s actually a practicing Muslim who opposes extremism.)
But that didn’t stop the Star-Ledger last week from devoting an editorial to denouncing New Jersey’s ICE spokesman, Emilio Dabul, for his “links” (as supplied by the SPLC) to “anti-Muslim fanatics.” This, even though the Star-Ledger admitted that Dabul’s own writings “showed no anti-Muslim bias.” It was all guilt by association — right from the SPLC playbook.
Now Sessions has ordered a review to ensure the Justice Department no longer partners with the SPLC and other groups that “unfairly defame Americans.”
…Sessions charged, it uses its hate-group designations “as a weapon” to “bully and intimidate” organizations of which it simply doesn’t approve.
As Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who’s also been smeared by the SPLC as an “anti-Muslim extremist,”*** has noted, the group these days is invested more in “profiting off the anxieties and white guilt of Northern liberals” than in actually upholding civil rights.
Sessions’ review is long overdue, and follows other government agencies that have backed away from the SPLC. It’s time for those who still merely parrot its smears to start taking a closer look.
If you are looking for something to do, you need to complain to your local paper or TV station any time they use the SPLC as a credible source to define “hate groups.”
***The SPLC was forced to remove its now infamous Anti-Muslim Extremist list that included yours truly, see here.
Targeting Refugee Resettlement Watch and anyone questioning refugee resettlement for their towns and cities was initiated by a Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society study in 2013 which explicitly asked that the SPLC investigate us. Here is a quote from that study (my post is here). Earlier in the report they mentioned RRW by name.
Conduct Research on Local Anti-Refugee Leaders: The national refugee agencies should partner with groups such as Center for New Community and Southern Poverty Law Center to learn more about individuals and groups leading local efforts to resist resettlement, to determine if they belong to organized anti-immigrant or anti-Muslim organizations or networks.
Remember that the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, as one of nine federal resettlement contractors, is dependent on your tax dollars for more than half of the group’s income!
I first spotted this story at Arizona Central and my first thought was—-here we go again. Although labeled as “refugees,” are they going to tell us anything about the nationality of the lying husband and wife who got in to the US during the Obama Administration?
But after looking around at other stories about yesterday’s breaking news, I see we do have more information this time. However, my big red flag question is this:
How did these alleged terrorist Africans (supposedly Ethiopians, but their names are Somali names) get to Arizona via China?
I checked Wrapsnet and sure enough we do process a few refugees in to the US from China! How insane is that! With all the refugee fraud going on around the world, why would we trust anyone (Africans no less!) coming in via China?
First, here is the AZCentral story:
A Tucson couple who had obtained refugee status were arrested Friday on charges of falsifying information on an application for permanent residency, including a question that asked about ties to known members of terrorist groups.
The couple, Mohamed Abdirahman Osman, 28, and Zeinab Abdirahman Mohamed, 25, were both living in Tucson at the time of their arrest Friday.
On Wednesday, they were indicted on 11 federal criminal counts involving “violations of false swearing in an immigration matter and false statements to a government agency,” said First Assistant U.S. Attorney Elizabeth Strange in a press release.
Osman was found to have used a false name and nationality on his application for permanent residency, Strange said. In addition, he falsely denied any association with members of a terrorist organization, Strange said.
While living in China, the couple applied for and were granted refugee status in 2014 and entered the United States, living in Tucson since, Strange said.
In June 2015, Osman and Mohamed submitted applications for Legal Permanent Residence Status to U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, Strange said.
According to the indictment filed against the couple, the “material submitted in support of their refugee applications and their applications for Legal Permanent Residence Status contained false, fictitious, and fraudulent statements,” Strange said.
Officials did not specify what terrorist group may have been involved and provided no further details.
But another story, here, does:
Man living in Tucson was member of Somalian terrorist group, feds say
TUCSON, AZ – Federal authorities say an Ethiopian man using a fake identity while living in Tucson was a member of a terrorist group.
The U.S. Attorney’s Office said Friday that Mohamed Abdirahman Osman was indicted in federal court on eight counts of making false statements to immigration authorities. Authorities allege his wife, Zeinab Abdirahman Mohamed, also hid his identity. She faces three charges.
An indictment filed this week shows that Osman used a fake Somalian passport to get to the U.S.
He told authorities he sustained injuries in a terrorist attack in Somalia but had actually been hurt while handling explosives, according to the indictment. Police believe Osman was a member of al-Shabab, a Somali militant group responsible for major attacks that have left hundreds killed.
Gee, maybe Trump has a point about how refugees have NOT been thoroughly vetted as the refugee industry constantly insists they have been.
See a post I wrote in 2016 listing other terrorists and violent criminals who got in to the US as refugees or asylum seekers.
The Evangelical Immigration Table is a conglomeration of evangelical groups on the Religious Left, and like all skilled Leftwing activists they know how to get media attention.
Write a letter to the Trump Administration and you get headline stories…..
Here at HuffPo we see that the Table group has sent a letter to the Secretary of State and others who will make the decision on how many refugees could be admitted to the US beginning October first.
They want the President to set the level of refugee admissions for FY19 at 75,000 (that is the agreed upon level that the contractors*** have come up with for this coming year, a number that would keep them financially afloat.)
What I would like to know is why don’t evangelical conservatives now get together and counter the liberals with a letter of their own. After all, they far out number the Libs!
LOL! See if HuffPo writes a headline story about your letter—-Evangelicals tell President to place moratorium on refugee program until reforms are in place!
Instead, a small number comprising the Religious Left says this….
Evangelical Leaders Urge White House To Raise Refugee Admissions For 2019
Seven evangelical Christian organizations have jointly criticized the Trump administration for allowing refugee resettlement to hit a historic low at a time when the global refugee crisis is intensifying.
In a letter to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen and religious freedom ambassador Sam Brownback, the leaders of the Evangelical Immigration Table told the administration its drastic cuts to refugee admissions could be undermining its pledge to protect religious freedom worldwide.
The group, a coalition of seven evangelical organizations united around immigration issues, called for the administration to bring refugee resettlement back to “a level consistent with historical norms.” It recommended resettling at least 75,000 refugees in fiscal year 2019.
Last year, President Donald Trump set the refugee admissions cap at 45,000 ― the lowest level since the modern program was enacted in 1980. In practice, data suggests that the U.S. is admitting even fewer than that. It’s on track to admit about 20,000 refugees during the current fiscal year, CNN reports.
The administration has until September to decide the cap for fiscal year 2019, which begins on Oct. 1. New reports from The New York Times and The Daily Beast suggest the White House is considering dropping the official ceiling even further, down to 25,000 people.
Doesn’t it make you wonder how the Evangelical Immigration Table can exist when it doesn’t represent most evangelicals?
But while they confront the Trump administration on the issue, members of the Evangelical Immigration Table also face another challenge ― the fact that rank-and-file white evangelical Protestants are more inclined to side with the president.
Last year, the Pew Research Center found that 76 percent of white evangelicals supported Trump’s first executive order on immigration, which restricted refugees and travel from some Muslim-majority countries. In another poll published this May, 68 percent of white evangelicals said they believed the U.S. does not have a responsibility to accept refugees. Only 25 percent agreed that this responsibility exists.
The studies suggest that, along with petitioning the White House, leaders of the Evangelical Immigration Table also face an uphill battle in convincing fellow believers about the importance of welcoming refugees.
Go here for the full story, and see the letter, here. Note how concerned they now appear to be about Christian refugees when in years past they were eagerly welcoming the large number of Muslim refugees Obama was admitting.
***The nine federal resettlement contractors that are mostly funded by you, the taxpayer, are below.
One of the nine, World Relief, also belongs to the Evangelical Immigration Table. And, we know they need more money from the US Treasury for their Christian ‘good works.’
Another low year, perhaps lower than this year’s 20,000 plus year, could completely blow to smithereens the budget of one or more of these federal contractors which are demanding a cap of 75,000. (Obama had a cap LOWER than that in 3 consecutive years, see here.)
The number in parenthesis is the percentage of their income paid by you (the taxpayer) to place the refugees into your towns and cities and get them signed up for their services (aka welfare)!
From most recent accounting, here.
- Church World Service (CWS) (71%)
- Ethiopian Community Development Council (ECDC) (secular)(93%)
- Episcopal Migration Ministries (EMM) (99.5%)
- Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society (HIAS) (57%)
- International Rescue Committee (IRC) (secular) (66.5%)
- US Committee for Refugees and Immigrants (USCRI) (secular) (98%)
- Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Services (LIRS) (97%)
- United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) (97%)
- World Relief Corporation (WR) (72.8%)
“Who would have guessed that a constellation of formerly atheistic, Communist countries would become the vanguard of the family?”
(Samuel Hammond writing at National Review)
It isn’t just in Hungary either. In Poland and especially in Russia the push is on to encourage marriage and then the all important follow-up—more babies!
Why? They want to produce their own replacements and stop the flood of third world migrant workers that globalist corporations say are needed to keep the economy humming. Never mind that the migrants have no interest in maintaining Hungarian, Polish or Russian culture (even if they work and don’t depend on welfare payments).
I guess you can tell, I love this guy—Viktor Orban—because he has no fear of telling the truth.
And, this subject interests me because in the 1970’s I was steeped in this idea that no family should have more than two children in order to save the planet. But, guess what, only white educated young people listened.
And, in fact, no one I ever knew made any serious effort to tell it to those in the Middle East and Africa especially where Muslims were pushing their people to produce babies for Allah and to migrate.
Here is a detailed account at National Review of what, first Hungary is doing to boost its population, and what is happening in Russia and Poland to do the same.
It strikes me that a renewed focus on American family-building might be something Donald Trump should incorporate into his campaign message.
Surely you knew that the US birthrate is now below replacement levels.
Born in Hungary
(Emphasis below is mine)
From dubbing refugees from North Africa and the Middle East “Muslim invaders” to proclaiming Hungary a Christian homeland, Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban is prominent mainly for his brand of right-wing populist nationalism. Yet behind the vitriol that defines Orban in the Western press is a government embarked on what may end up being the biggest natalist policy experiment in modern history — an experiment that is redefining the possibilities for modern social conservatism. Can government policies coax people to have more babies? We’re about to find out.
Demographic transition — the shift from having many children per woman to just a few — is normally something hoped for in a developing country as a signal of improvements in employment opportunities and infant mortality. Yet across the developed world, birth rates have continued to fall and now dip significantly below replacement levels. It’s a phenomenon that is particularly acute in the former Communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe for reasons that are somewhat mysterious, but it has been exacerbated by emigration to richer parts of Europe. In Hungary’s case, a country of 9.8 million has lost approximately 1 million people since its population peaked in 1980.
Speaking at the World Congress of Families in Budapest last year, Orban unveiled an “action plan” for goosing Hungary’s birth rate of 1.5 children per woman to 2.1, the normal replacement rate, by 2030, thus turning the demographic tide. “Europe, our common homeland, is losing out in the population competition between great civilizations,” he told the audience of Christian conservatives. “Fewer and fewer marriages are producing fewer and fewer children, and the population is therefore aging and declining.”
Author Hammond here gives us a lengthy detailed report of how certain countries are attempting to increase birth rates and then wraps with this:
Nonetheless, American social conservatives have a lot to learn from Eastern Europe’s experience with family policy. Despite conservative successes on the Supreme Court, progressive cultural ascendancy — from the crystallization of gay marriage and abortion rights to the ubiquity of race and gender politics — has left many traditionalists feeling beleaguered, without an agenda, and pining for a monastic life off the grid.
Meanwhile, though the jury is still out on Hungary’s birth rate, between 2010 and 2016 marriage rates increased 46 percent after declining over the previous decade.
Official statistics clearly show, in a trend that predated Orban, that reported abortions have dropped by more than a quarter over the same period, reaching historic lows. Is it so unreasonable to think that generous financial support and the cultural celebration of new mothers and their children had something to do with it?
With Trump’s presidency creating political disequilibrium where established party coalitions once stood, America’s social conservatives — from working-class families to cultural Catholics — have a roadmap for renewed relevance.
Endnote: So when is Donald Trump going to invite Viktor Orban to the White House? Waiting!
In an episode titled “A Military History of Islam and the West,” Todd Wilken of the radio show, Issues, ETC, interviewed me earlier this week on my forthcoming book, Sword and Scimitar: Fourteen Centuries of War between Islam and the West. Click here to listen to the 45-minute-long discussion.